Animal Rights Community Online

[Sharon]

 Why Spay and Neuter you ask?

[Sage]

Totally agree

[spay-neuter-now]

CAUTION: Tubal Vasectomy

[arthur cooke]

I realy do have to disagree here, a huge part of an animals being revolves around mating and reproducing and if your aim is just to stop reproduction, why would anyone want to stop the animals natural behavour.Animals should be allowed natural behavour and access to their own kind and in fact it is about to be written into UK law, it won't apply to spaying etc of dogs and cats, which to my mind is unfortunate.

Why do people feel that they have the right to surgicaly alter an animal so that half its personality is destroyed and makes the animal more compliant to a human way of life, mustn't have the inconveniance of a bit of blood on the furnature etc etc, how can you talk of respect for an animal if you believe you can do this sort of thing to them, I may not believe in animal rights but I do believe in a duty of care, if you take on any animal as a companion animal, then you choose an animal that will fit your circumstances and not an animal that has to be surgicaly altered to fit. If you can't live with the natural behavour of a dog or a cat then don't have one, find another companion animal or don't keep any animals.

As for the idea that people don't want to nuiter or spay an animal because they are some how sexual deviants is completly over the top and I think that it is people who want to use spaying etc to alter the personality of an animal that need to look at their suitabilty to have a dog or a cat.

There are always other solutions, birth control pills are one example.
Animals need to be able to behave in a natural way and if it is possable, I believe we should.

cheers arthur

[Minoesj]

I do not believe birth control pills are a solution as they clearly change the behavior of cats (i guess of dogs as well) and it highers the risk at cancer and other health problems.

[arthur cooke]

Yes, but it is only a tempory alteration,two or three times a year, my wife was on the pill for something like ten years and she is ok, so far.
My main point here is that if we are to teach people to have respect for other life, how can they, if they think they can do what they like. This goes all the way down the line, I want my dog to look pretty so I'L dock it's tail or dye it pink, cut out its tongue so it can't bark or breed it so that its shape gives breathing difficulties.
Cancer is a risk we all take and it's difficult to take risk out of life.
Life is risk by its very nature!
Spaying an animal can also cause liver problems and weight problems and of course, obisity carries its own problems like heart disease etc so spaying does have its own problems.

We have to educate people into having a bit of a mind change over how they think about animals of all kinds. Make people think about the way they interact with them.
I do believe that understanding the natural behavour of an animal brings us all closer to understanding an animals needs and being able to cater for those needs.

cheers arthur

[RandomAmber]

Heck, birth control changes the behavior of humans, too.

[spay-neuter-now]

Arthur, people here in the USA are aghast at the idea of their pets having "sex", people don't want the kids to see it and it embarasses people.

Letting pets "have sex" is highly impractical if someone owns two females or two males, or a Gt Dane and a Chihuahua it just aint gonna happen.

The UK is different in every way from the USA and it's fine to say don't get a pet if you have to neuter/spay to keep one from having accidents but that's fantasy land, people will get one anyway, people will buy a Mastiff puppy and then complain it got too big and dump it.

I've owned several spayed dogs, they never knew a thing, two of them had it done because they developed pyometra and it was a medical emergency and I was lucky they didn't die from it. One of them, her ovaries were totally crusted with little black cysts.

[arthur cooke]

I find it a bit strange that Americans are like that, it gives children an insight into the subject of sex and makes the idea of human sex education easier, but thats not my point against the idea that we should be using surgery to take away an animals natural feelings when we don't realy have to.
Yes, of course I do understand there are sometimes difficulties if you have two pets of the same sex.
But what I am trying to get across is the idea, to try to get people to think about animals, companion animals in a different way to the way they think now.
An animal is an animal, not a thing, not a human child, as in the case of some dogs. Don't buy a dog because it looks pretty, don't buy a dog that needs its tail cut off because it might damage the furniture, buy a smaller dog, get an animal that fits in, not one you have to surgicaly alter to fit in.

When we are in control of the lives of animals, then surely we have to consider the animal and what is to their benefit, as well as ours. I'm not saying that there are no circumstances in which speying ect must not be done, there are obviously circumstances in which it should.
People need to be educated so that their choice of a companion animal is a responsible one.

cheers arthur

[Sharon]

Unfortunately I am in a rush but will post this part for the moment.......spaying/neutering DOES NOT cause obesity. That is a myth. I hear that all the time from clients....common question. Animals can tend to eat more thus gain weight....so we get off our butts and exercise them.....does us a world of good too! Over eating and laziness can be a cause of obesity, not spaying. If we monitor what we feed our pets and take care of them, it wont be a problem. Just be responsible for your animal companion. You list all these health issues from spaying your pet, how about we lisst the ones from NOT spaying and neutering......from cancers, etc,,,,,to premature death. Ok, gotta run........

[arthur cooke]

There may well be advantages and disadvantages,but the decision should be made on the animals needs more than ours.
We arn't just talking about dogs but cats as well and perhaps other animals, they also spey house rabbits and actualy the imperitive that makes animal active and exercise is a sexual one.

I take it from you post (clients) that you are a vet or perhaps a nurse and I find most vets take this attitude and vested interests come into it here, in that some vets make a lot of money from performing this operation. I'm not saying this is where you are coming from, by the way, but merely as a factor to be considered.

At the moment there is little in the laws of most countries, to consider an animals mental wellbeing and yet it is as importent as the pysical wellbeing, in fact, in some ways it is more importent.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

cheers arthur

[loopylou]

Totally agree with the idea of considering an animal's mental wellbeing but this may also be offered up as a reason for neutering.
1. Sexual desire is hormonally driven. Sexual behaviour is a consequence of this desire. What about situations in which:
a) we simply allow all animals to follow through their sexual instincts? Doesn't this lead to overpopulation, overcrowding, lack of sufficient resources, etc. All documented to increase stress and aggression in animals. Aggression is natural as is stress but these are hardly beneficial to mental wellbeing.
b) We allow the animal to retain its sexual instincts but deny it the opportunity to fulfil its desires?
Doesn't this lead to frustration, aggression, stress, etc and the same arg applies as before.
Neutering may be offered as an acceptable way of behaviourally modifiying an animal on the grounds that it may increase mental wellbeing of the neutered animal, those animals around it (less risk of territorial or misplaced sexual behaviour being directed towards it - my un-neutered rabbit killed her companion because of her sexual urges), and prevent mental suffering of all those offspring that the environment cannot support.

[arthur cooke]

Well, sometimes people have to be cautious, take the example of the rabbit, you allowed one natual behavour, but perhaps didn't think it through, it would be unnatural in the wild for this to happen, the doe would flee and there would be other does available for th buck to try his hand at, so to speak, so in those circumstances I would make sure that there was a bolt hole for the doe and perhaps another doe in there as well.

Obviously there has to be some sort of limmit on how far you can go with natural behavour but people should think about it, if you want a dog, cat or rabbit, surely thats what you want?

The problem with too many animals is one of human irresponsibility, it's not the animals fault it has young.

cheers arthur

[loopylou]

On the contrary, there were plenty of bolt holes and another female rabbit. This kind of behaviour is entirely normal for a entire female rabbit. Further this kind of behaviour is entirely normal across the animal kingdom in the wild. As is overpopulation. Overpopulation is the animal's fault (or, rather, its genes) - just aided and abbetted by humans in the domestic setting. Animals want to breed! They aren't naturally controlling their own populations through birth control - the environment does it for them, through starvation, predation, lack of shelter, etc. All of these causing suffering wouldn't you say? Any appeal from the wild and normal wild behaviour isn't always synoinymous with arguing for good mental states.

[loopylou]

Forgot to add - also agree re: if you get a dog, etc that is what you want. I think that people are often to slack about taking on animals without any regard for its species typical behaviour and that causes loadsa problems, not least for the poor animal who has to suffer! I just think that neutering is something that can be justified on animal welfare grounds rather than just being seen as a tool for making the animal more convienant to live with.